Muvizu

30/01/2014 07:27:57

AuroraMoon
Posts: 30

And how they compare to Muvizu.

I've been telling everyone I know about Muvizu. About how fun and easy it is to use, and the fact that it doesn't take as long to render an animated video clip. The thing is, one would need a vast experience of other animation programs to be able to compare, right?

I've been way into animating things as an hobby ever since I was a teenager, and as an result I've been using a lot of programs throughout my life and can safely compare Muvizu and those other programs though my own expernice.
So, I just thought you guys would like to know why I enjoy Muvizu so much, and what programs I've used in the past.

1. Lionhead's "The Movies" PC game. This is an awesome game that first got me into 3d animation as a young teenager. You do run an Hollywood studio, but you also have the ability to direct actors and actresses, create your own movies on sets and the like. I've created plenty of movies using this game.

Pros: Very easy to make movies, and they have plenty of backgrounds, sets, etc... espeically if you also get the stunt pack expansion which allows your actors/actors to be put into more dangerous action shots.

Cons: The graphics quickly becomes outdated, the actors/actresses can be somewhat unattractive at times and it's not easy to install custom content into the game in an attempt to "update" the game. What's more, Lionhead is no longer in business, so it doesn't look like they will ever make a "The Movies 2" game with updated graphics and a better way to mod the game. So this is it for you if you want to have something like this. Also, there's not many games being sold on places like Amazon... so in this day and age you'd need to find a Torrent of it if you want to have this game.

2. Miku Miku Dance. A Japanese program that also has a english mode, that makes it very easy to create music videos and the like. It's also been used to create dramatic and funny stories by many users. The characters all have this cel-shaded look to them, in addition to being anime characters. The best part? It's completely free, and can be found here: http://www.geocities.jp/higuchuu4/index_e.htm
A example of what it can do:

Pros: Very easily moddable, and there's a very large community deciated to sharing custom sets, clothing, and even different character models! You can also easily make your own custom content with the right tools too.
Cons: The Program isn't very easy nor intuitive to use at all. you basically need at least a whole month to learn how to use and master this program. It's also more easier to download others' custom animations to use than it is to create and use your own custom animation. Unlike Mivuziu, this program doesn't come with a whole list of click-able animations to use... you have to import BVH files and the like for your characters to use. also, the english verison of the progam isn't competely in English, so there's still a few Japanese remnants, espeically in the naming of your 3d character's body parts.

3. Poser Pro/Daz Studio-- More of a 3d art program than an animation program... you can still make videos with it though. But not very easy to do at all unless you download or buy animations for your characters to use (kind of similar to MMD). Daz Studio is currently free right now, and can be found at Daz3d.com website.

Pros: Easier to use than MMD when it comes to animating, once you get the hang of it and figure how to animate your characters frame by frame. Easier to customize your characters in the program and build an entire world in there too. And like MMD you can find plenty of free stuff online to use for your characters.
Cons: Not really meant to be an animation program, the animating part was more like an added bonus and it definitely shows.

4. Movie Storm-- A nice sandbox animation program, similar to Muvizu. Downside, it doesn't have a free version of the program... in fact they require an subscription fee which can be daunting for mere hobbyists.

Pros: Easy to use, and easy to learn the ropes and make a movie like an old pro.
cons: The money issue... that and the fact that the models' eyes look dead half the times.

5. A new one I recently found. it's free and still in Beta, but holds a lot of promise. Plotagon, which can be found here: https://plotagon.com/
I even made a short test video with it:
https://plotagon.com/3602

Pros: It's free, easy to use and the 3d actors follows the script you can create in a matter of seconds.
Cons: Still fairly limited. There's not a large range of actions, expressions and sets. But it just recently came out, so......

So with those programs I've used, You can see why I like Muvizu. It's easy to use user-created content, can be easy to update the textures if you feel it's too outdated... and it's easy to use and learn things. It comes with built-in animations that you can click and use within seconds.

30/01/2014 09:11:32

primaveranz
Posts: 520

AuroraMoon wrote:

4. Movie Storm-- A nice sandbox animation program, similar to Muvizu. Downside, it doesn't have a free version of the program... in fact they require an subscription fee which can be daunting for mere hobbyists.

To be balanced....

Moviestorm does not require a subscription fee; you can buy a version with several content packs for as little as $75.00 USD. I think there is also a free version available again. Like Muvizu you can create your own props. But unlike Muvizu you can also create interactive props and your own animations for characters. Although this is not straightforward, anyone with a bit of application can learn to do it and there is a very supportive community.

30/01/2014 10:42:39

AuroraMoon
Posts: 30

It's been a while ever since I used Moviestorm, so thank you for correcting me on that one. still, 75 dollars can be a little bit too much for people who are cheapskate hobbyists (like me!).

30/01/2014 12:52:20

gracemaker
Posts: 17

AuroraMoon wrote:

And how they compare to Muvizu.

I've been telling everyone I know about Muvizu. About how fun and easy it is to use, and the fact that it doesn't take as long to render an animated video clip. The thing is, one would need a vast experience of other animation programs to be able to compare, right?

I've been way into animating things as an hobby ever since I was a teenager, and as an result I've been using a lot of programs throughout my life and can safely compare Muvizu and those other programs though my own expernice.
So, I just thought you guys would like to know why I enjoy Muvizu so much, and what programs I've used in the past.

1. Lionhead's "The Movies" PC game. This is an awesome game that first got me into 3d animation as a young teenager. You do run an Hollywood studio, but you also have the ability to direct actors and actresses, create your own movies on sets and the like. I've created plenty of movies using this game.

Pros: Very easy to make movies, and they have plenty of backgrounds, sets, etc... espeically if you also get the stunt pack expansion which allows your actors/actors to be put into more dangerous action shots.

Cons: The graphics quickly becomes outdated, the actors/actresses can be somewhat unattractive at times and it's not easy to install custom content into the game in an attempt to "update" the game. What's more, Lionhead is no longer in business, so it doesn't look like they will ever make a "The Movies 2" game with updated graphics and a better way to mod the game. So this is it for you if you want to have something like this. Also, there's not many games being sold on places like Amazon... so in this day and age you'd need to find a Torrent of it if you want to have this game.

that is a cool comparison.
i actually own Lionhead's "The Movies" PC game, but i could not figure out whether they output in full hd, does it?
sorry to hear they went out of business, what was the mistake they made, that muvizu should watch out for?

30/01/2014 13:56:30

urbanlamb
(Account inactive)
Posts: 1786

AuroraMoon wrote:

It's been a while ever since I used Moviestorm, so thank you for correcting me on that one. still, 75 dollars can be a little bit too much for people who are cheapskate hobbyists (like me!).

I find this ' i am a hobbyist' therefore it should be free to always puzzle me

here are some examples of hobbies that cost way more then these softwares
a- photography - the camera alone is about 800 bucks for a decent one these days then its digital so you need other bits of hardware and software to get it into the pc and usable in an acceptable form

b-stamp colleting and coin collecting or collecting of any kind unless its butterfies or something even then you need to buy some pins . if its coins or stamps it can get insanely expensive. As a kid I used to collect both stamps and coins and I did so religiously i babysat and that is where all my money went. When I went to university I could not pay my rent for a couple months as i was between jobs and had caught the dreaded mono from a classmate and i remember using those two collections parts of them to pay my rent. okay slight side story there but you get the idea lol i spent enough money I could pay rent to stop from being evicted

c- drawing can be very expensive if you decide to move beyond pen and paper and into paints - canvass, paints, brushes, cleaning solutions

d- music - either using the pc as the instrument or a real instrument - if you create your own its cheaper if you want to use music already written you need to purchase the sheet music which depending on the era can cost money. If you play the guitar or wind instrument or a piano there are always costs you entail beyond purchase of the instruments, strings, picks, reeds, cleaners, keys whatever the guy you hire to tune the pianno and maintain it etc

so i am unsure of how 3d has become a domain of "if i dont use it to make money it should all be free". As it is doing anything in 3d is fairly cheap in comparison to some other hobbies out there as there is a large opensourced pool or tools to use

30/01/2014 14:50:49

Wizaerd
Posts: 122

Ahhh, The Movies. I asbolutely loved it, and put together quite a few little movie clips with it. I always hoped there'd be a follow up to it, but alas, it wasn't meant to be.

I used Moviestorm quite a while ago, and found it fairly easy to use, but the characters motions were always so jerky, and I always found the camera mode clumsy and awkward. Plus, importing assets wasn't possible unless you go their modding workbench, and was very difficult to use. I don't think I ever successfully imported anything. I still go back to their website to see what's been updated and/or changed, and it doesn't seem like much has.

I also own and use all the different Reallusion products, iClone, CrazyTalk, CrazyTalk Animator. They're expensive, and generally difficult to work with, but I've seen some pretty amazing results done with them. Nothing I can accomplish though, but then I don't have the patience to learn each and every little work-a-round in order to achieve those great results.

Oddly enough, one of my most successful animation accomplishments came with using the World of Warcraft 3 map editor. In fact, I prefer using a game engine where one can define regions which trigger actions & events, and then script out animation versus keyframing animations. Of course the caveat there is that somebody had already created the keyframed animation clips, and I could make use of them in the game engine. I had thought about using something like Unity for this, but again, somebody still has to create the keyframed animation sequences, the models still have to be created, the set props and other objects have to be modeled, etc...

I like Muvizu because it has a great deal of content, and the character animations, for the most part, look really good. Muvizu still isn't perfect, and there's quite a few things that need to get added to it, but overall it probably is one of the most fun animation applications available. To be perfect, it needs paths or waypoints (for character, prop, and camera movements), better character customizations (proportions mostly), ideally a keyframe editor for creating new actions, prop interactions or a way to dynamically link & unlink a prop from a character, a snap to grid function for set building.

30/01/2014 21:30:53

ziggy72
Posts: 1988

urbanlamb wrote:

AuroraMoon wrote:

It's been a while ever since I used Moviestorm, so thank you for correcting me on that one. still, 75 dollars can be a little bit too much for people who are cheapskate hobbyists (like me!).

I find this ' i am a hobbyist' therefore it should be free to always puzzle me

Ah but Urban, if you put 'cheapskate' in front of anything then it has to be free, or else you won't do it

30/01/2014 21:56:02

ziggy72
Posts: 1988

I've used a few of these myself, but I still ended up in Muvizu anyway.

The Movies : Yeah, bit of fun, but it's a very limiting experience. It has a western set, a space set, war set, etc but there's only so many times you can see the same bit of scenery behind a character, from roughly the same angles, with no shadows and poor lighting (which can only be switched between predefined presets) before you get annoyed. If only Lionhead were still around and developed it further, it could've become something really good. There's a good few mods around for it, because it's been around so long, but the look of it is just too...old school.

Poser/Daz : Daz is really good for stills (that's what it's for, after all) and you can import and manipulate stuff easily enough. Don't think I'd be too keen to try to animate anything with it though - moving the models into the right poses is relatively simple, but second guessing where the characters limbs will be when you're trying to make keyframes is tricky (also tricky to describe what I mean - download it, it's free, give it a bash). There is a speech function of sorts in there too, but I've not really tried it yet. Busy

Moviestorm : Only tried this one recently, and like The Movies it's limited, and clunky, and old looking, and the characters all share a flat, robotic quality that I found really distracting and unconvincing (still do). Some bits are really good, like the walking system they use, and the 'rose' selection thing for quick access to the animations, and you can customize it far more than The Movies ever could, but I gave up when I realised I couldn't control the lights (presets again). Apparently you can add one light, but that's all. Nice, but no thanks

Bryce : Okay, not actually an animation package as such, but with a bit of green screen you can put your characters into any landscape you want to make. And it's free.

Muvizu? S'alright, I suppose... Big Grin

30/01/2014 22:10:12

urbanlamb
(Account inactive)
Posts: 1786

You can add more then one light with moviestorm its just that the lighting system seems to not always work or something dunno its built on old technology so at the time it might have been okay its outdated though and it shows it. The "good bits" of moviestorm was their camera system the rest I always found to not work the way I needed them to. Iclone I have never found complicated but perhaps its because it works like most 3d stuff out there so it appears to be "intuitive" once you realize how it works. Daz well I would use cararra but the downside to that is its a full cpu render so it can be slow. I would not use daz itself to me this is a workshop with some limited abilities. I like carrara and would use it if it offered a gpu option and these days I think its an essential part of any package for speed even if the final render will be a cpu render.

The movies well if i were to go that route I would use sims 3 but i prefer to be able to order my characters around and make them do my bidding. The movies is just too old but i am sure it was very fun when it was new.

I like bryce for landscape and actually use it often although its interchangeable with blender which has a bryce like pluggin now.

Muvizu is a good deal if you like to make small things and can be used for larger things because its lighting and graphics is decent enough that people who watch it wont be turned off. Its more rigid then I would like but I stick around and use it a lot for a reason. Their pro package I am hoping removed any other unwanted restrictions I have encountered over time. Meanwhile I dont think I will ever have any single product that I would say "this one does everything I want the way I want I dont need anything else anymore just this" but some products are getting pretty darned close

edited by urbanlamb on 30/01/2014

30/01/2014 22:25:19

primaveranz
Posts: 520

ziggy72 wrote:

but I gave up when I realised I couldn't control the lights (presets again). Apparently you can add one light, but that's all. Nice, but no thanks

These "X vs Y" debates are always very subjective but it is important to be accurate with the "evidence"

You can certainly control the lights in Moviestorm and have more than one. There are two different lighting systems and you can add extra lights as well as follow-me spots etc. There are some tricks to reduce the "Jaggy" quality that sometimes occurs with large sets but nothing that can't be overcome.

IMHO the camera and movement controls are far superior to Muvizu at present. Indeed Muvizu is even more limited than Moviestorm because you can't create your own animations and can only have cartoony characters which limits the genres you can seriously tackle.

But it is horses for courses, if "cartoony" is what you want then Muvizu is undoubtedly better than Moviestorm.

30/01/2014 23:14:09

ziggy72
Posts: 1988

primaveranz wrote:

But it is horses for courses, if "cartoony" is what you want then Muvizu is undoubtedly better than Moviestorm.

It's not cartoony I want, it's not looking like the intro movie to a 10 year old game. Even if you can add more lights than I could find a way to, it just lights up the ugly

31/01/2014 05:25:45

primaveranz
Posts: 520

ziggy72 wrote:

primaveranz wrote:

But it is horses for courses, if "cartoony" is what you want then Muvizu is undoubtedly better than Moviestorm.

It's not cartoony I want, it's not looking like the intro movie to a 10 year old game. Even if you can add more lights than I could find a way to, it just lights up the ugly

I guess one out of two ain't bad then

The thing that wears me down with Muvizu at the moment is that every idea I have for a "short quick" movie hits a brick wall quite quickly.
Usually this is to do with the movement bug, the multiple times you have to retake to get timings correct or the uncontrollable cameras and I have to simplify my original idea even more just to get it done.

Hopefully when they fix the first of these I will become a bit more enthusiastic as it is the worst of all.

31/01/2014 05:59:59

fazz68
(Account inactive)
Posts: 763

primaveranz wrote:

the uncontrollable cameras

how are you controlling your cameras? using the mouse is a waste of time. using the keyboard is the way to go. for some really fancy moves you will need four hands though Big Grin

31/01/2014 14:44:01

Wizaerd
Posts: 122

fazz68 wrote:

primaveranz wrote:

the uncontrollable cameras

how are you controlling your cameras? using the mouse is a waste of time. using the keyboard is the way to go. for some really fancy moves you will need four hands though Big Grin

And even then, the camera control is still fairly horrible. One should not have to use WASD to control a camera, one should be able to click on the camera and add a keyframe, move the timeline scrubber, move the camera and another keyframe should be made. Controlling the camera as a First Person character in a video game just isn't intuitive, and rarely gives precise & smooth movements and pans, especially if any rotating of the camera view is required. I didn't care for the separate camera mode in Moviestorm, but it was easier to actually control than it is in Muvizu.

31/01/2014 15:35:33

fazz68
(Account inactive)
Posts: 763

Wizaerd wrote:

fazz68 wrote:

primaveranz wrote:

the uncontrollable cameras

how are you controlling your cameras? using the mouse is a waste of time. using the keyboard is the way to go. for some really fancy moves you will need four hands though Big Grin

And even then, the camera control is still fairly horrible. One should not have to use WASD to control a camera, one should be able to click on the camera and add a keyframe, move the timeline scrubber, move the camera and another keyframe should be made. Controlling the camera as a First Person character in a video game just isn't intuitive, and rarely gives precise & smooth movements and pans, especially if any rotating of the camera view is required. I didn't care for the separate camera mode in Moviestorm, but it was easier to actually control than it is in Muvizu.

dunno i never have any problems controlling the camera. the arrow keys backwards/forwards, rotate left and right. Q up, E down, A left, D right. pitch left/right. page up/page down/tilt up and down. one hand on the left side of the keyboard one on the other. fair enough for really complex camera moves it can get tricky but i dont find it that hard. with a bit of practice you can pull off some fancy moves. i grew up playing dodgy zx spectrum games so i suppose the wafty keyboard control skills never left me lol.

31/01/2014 16:52:39

Wizaerd
Posts: 122

fazz68 wrote:

Wizaerd wrote:

fazz68 wrote:

primaveranz wrote:

the uncontrollable cameras

how are you controlling your cameras? using the mouse is a waste of time. using the keyboard is the way to go. for some really fancy moves you will need four hands though Big Grin

And even then, the camera control is still fairly horrible. One should not have to use WASD to control a camera, one should be able to click on the camera and add a keyframe, move the timeline scrubber, move the camera and another keyframe should be made. Controlling the camera as a First Person character in a video game just isn't intuitive, and rarely gives precise & smooth movements and pans, especially if any rotating of the camera view is required. I didn't care for the separate camera mode in Moviestorm, but it was easier to actually control than it is in Muvizu.

dunno i never have any problems controlling the camera. the arrow keys backwards/forwards, rotate left and right. Q up, E down, A left, D right. pitch left/right. page up/page down/tilt up and down. one hand on the left side of the keyboard one on the other. fair enough for really complex camera moves it can get tricky but i dont find it that hard. with a bit of practice you can pull off some fancy moves. i grew up playing dodgy zx spectrum games so i suppose the wafty keyboard control skills never left me lol.

I find that camera controlling via WASD is never smooth, nor precise. It's herky-jerky. I play a lot of third person games, as well as a few first person, so I'm fairly good with the WASD movements. But moving a character in a game doesn't really require smoothness per se, but controlling a camera does, or should. Especially a pan shot, and trying to keep something in frame. Or trying to keep a camera focused on a a characters head while they're walking. If the camera at least had a "Look At" or "Point To" animation command would at least help out a bit. For this reason, I avoid camera animations in my clips, and they all seem so static because of it.

31/01/2014 18:51:06

fazz68
(Account inactive)
Posts: 763

i still dont see what the problem is. once you have worked out how fast a character walks in relation to the camera speed. keeping the character in frame isnt difficult. most of the time you are only going in a straight line and even if you are not, rotating the camera while moving is still not that hard. but im a muvizu fanboy and thats just my opinion and im sticking to it Big Grin

31/01/2014 19:20:31

AuroraMoon
Posts: 30

Gracemaker wrote:

that is a cool comparison.
i actually own Lionhead's "The Movies" PC game, but i could not figure out whether they output in full hd, does it?
sorry to hear they went out of business, what was the mistake they made, that muvizu should watch out for?

You can improve the quality of the videos via the export options that The Movies game has. Although I can't remember if they can export in HD quality.

They didn't really make any mistakes, other than selling out to Microsoft. The Microsoft company were mainly interested in purchasing the Lionhead company purely so that they could own rights to the Fable games. They weren't really interested in any other games that Lionhead had, and so therefore weren't able to see the potential of "The Movies" game.

It's a real shame too, I would had loved to see a new and improved Movies game... one with better graphics, better modding capabilities, etc. I'm sure that it would had turned out to be just as popular as the Fable games were. That's why I said that the Lionhead company wasn't in that kind of business anymore... because the people who were responsible for making the Movies game left the company after Microsoft took over. It wasn't simply the Lionhead that I knew anymore.

urbanlamb wrote:

I find this ' i am a hobbyist' therefore it should be free to always puzzle me.

The thing is, with Photography you can make some cash off it even if you don't do it professionally for a living. Many of my friends are photography hobbyists, but they will occasionally sell their pictures for money... so what they paid for their equipment matters little in the long run because they can always earn some of that money back even if they aren't true professionals. Plus, Cameras have good uses in "real life" beyond their hobbies, so it has a wide range of uses and purposes.
Can't say the same about 3D stuff.

things like stamps and bug-collecting tends to be cheap... pins you can get at a store for like 99 cents. so I don't think it can be compared to something like buying software that costs 70 or even 100 dollars.

And as Ziggy points out, being a Cheapstake tends to play a lot into whenever a person is willing to pay for something or not.
I'm what you would call a practical cheapskate... I don't shop for items all that much unless the items I use finally outlived their usefulness. Heck, I still wear my clothes from high school and I'm 30 years old now. I tend to feel that I don't need to buy clothes at all as long as the ones that I have still fits me regardless of whenever it's still fashionable or not.
I don't buy anything unless:
It's a item that can serve a dozen purposes in my everyday life and can save me time and labor.
The existing item I had was old and worn out.
there was a massive sale on it, where it was like 98% off AND it was something I could really use in my everyday life.
It's something that could eventually save me money on stuff.

And well... I use Muvizu mainly for fun, and I don't start up the program everyday... just once or twice a week. Sometimes I don't even use it for weeks depending on how busy I am with other things. I do the same thing with my other programs that I use for fun... so it's not like I would be able to justify spending 70 dollars on Moviestorm, at least to myself.

31/01/2014 19:28:13

primaveranz
Posts: 520

fazz68 wrote:

...keeping the character in frame isnt difficult. most of the time you are only going in a straight line and even if you are not, rotating the camera while moving is still not that hard.

You are a better man than I am Gungha Din

31/01/2014 20:07:44

urbanlamb
(Account inactive)
Posts: 1786

AuroraMoon wrote:

The thing is, with Photography you can make some cash off it even if you don't do it professionally for a living. Many of my friends are photography hobbyists, but they will occasionally sell their pictures for money...

*psst*

dont tell anyone but I make money from this from time to time I Just don't go looking for it and dont consider it a "proffession" I make a few hundred bucks a year to offset my massive addiction for software otherwise I would go broke lol. I do however spend way more then I make I would say 2/3rds more but I have to budget and pace myself and I am also a bonified cheapskate. I just have my toys and those that I must pay for I do. I do like everyone else if i can get it free I do but at the end of the day I dont get upset if someone wants money for it.

Its the ones that literally protest and get mad at companies for daring to charge money that seems well 'odd' at the end of the day even though money is just an invention and we could in fact do without it if we changed our ways it does make this world go round and so I have no problem paying people for their hard work if they ask for it. I used to sell assets direct sale (long long ago) but it became a battle of policing everything I did as people would buy a single copy and then sell copies of my copy 3d and stuff like that. However there are some more secure systems but still those systems are hackable so even then its not worth the bother. Everything in essence is worth money its just a case of trying to find a way to make money off it.

I get people asking me for things every month or so - usually avatar work which is extremely time consuming and difficult this is what people come to me for .. "can you make me an avatar that looks exactly like me" I have a string of avatars around the internet and have donated a few basic ones to some opensourced projects which resulted in people contacting me for some that looked like them - Huge market for that sort of thing everyone wants a likeness made of them for some wierd project or game they play lol. I also get asked to make commercials (using them other softwares which we are naming here but i usually avoid naming so as not to be the one that starts it lol). Commercials are fun I make 2 of those a year I think .. again not a lot but enough to make me realize people will pay for this stuff. Last one I made was a set of lessons for a cooperative on how to recycle.. inherietly borring stuff but useful..

So as with them other hobbies money can be made if one wants to and has the will to do so but with these things one has to be careful to not turn it into a job which is why i run the other way when people are looking for work to be done. In this case the people asking me I know in real world or have some other connection then muvizu or some other software site. Its something i am involved with already and I get approached that way. The only time I did it the other way and sold it you know like a store it became a miserable experience due to theft and people who just got way out of hand and so if i do anything now its either someone I know who like I can see and touch or a written contract is put in place and its for a quota for someone you know who has a clear idea and a vested interest in having something done and completed and out the door in a timely fashion who like has money and can prove it lol.

As for the muvizu cameras yeah they will and likely are working on a better solution. One has to remember that muvizu actually started out almost like a virtual world idea and then morphed into well a product that was pretty much "a game" and so gamelike qualities went with it. Now they have seen how it can be used for bigger things and the market has changed to make real time animation a relevant item to the professional industry and hobbyist alike

*end run on typing *

.. my hands dont hurt so much today..

*almost makes sense*

all I know is that a company to develop software must hire programmers and that the money must come from somewhere. Muvizu like everyone else has to eventually make some money just to survive. If we want it to improve as a software then it needs more money. All these suggestions on the forums people want implemented will cost money to implement. So they must charge a fee and put that money back into development and food and rent like the rest of us Big Grin

edited by urbanlamb on 31/01/2014

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