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Home ? Tech Help ? So much potential, so many bugs

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21/04/2013 13:58:40

ekholbrook
ekholbrook
Posts: 9 		The advantage of saving out single image files is mostly that you can stop at any point and pickup at that point later.

For example if the system crashes. You have at least saved out part of the animation.
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21/04/2013 15:16:59

WozToonsExperimental user
WozToons
Posts: 494 		ukBerty wrote:
All I see is that it's a lot harder to identify your shits as there are so many files.


Really? They are usually just below me when I've finished. Big Grin

I have a RAW folder for every shot with an appropriate name in an appropriate folder so finding them during and removing them after production is no problem.

OK UK here goes....
  • Most of the advice I have read on sites like Lightworks etc. say that you should work with raw frames until the final render.
  • I use Gimp 2.8 with GAP, this loves raw .tga as opposed to video files. It does not have to convert to frames first. Great for making transparent .avi stuff for import.
  • Slow motion or speeded up sequences are easier as there is no timecode in the files.
  • I add my audio after render so it saves me having to delete the audio track in an .avi
  • You don't have to faff around with all these codecs and their associated problems.
  • I don't care what anyone else says I still think the quality is better. ( I may be wrong but that's my perception )
  • Individual frames can be edited.
  • Take every 25th frame and you have a cool slideshow of every second of your movie.
  • See ekholbrook's point about stopping and starting.
  • A ready made repository of screenshots.

I am sure there are more but my brain has a day off on Sundays.

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21/04/2013 18:36:25

ziggy72Muvizu mogulExperimental user
ziggy72
Posts: 1988 		ukBerty wrote:
All I see is that it's a lot harder to identify your shits as there are so many files.

No, I think the wrong word here is 'files' - it should be 'flies' Big Grin
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21/04/2013 19:21:21

urbanlamb
urbanlamb
(Account inactive)
Posts: 1786 		At the moment i use uncompressed muvizu only goes to 720x1280 anyhow. If I want to do something wierd with the frames I might do a short bit of TGA but for me anyhow the loss of quality after youtube re-encodes in webm no one is going to see it and I sure can't I only see my editing errors after I look at it being away from a week of staring at the video. I find an advantage to using tga's if I have to do a stop motion edit in muvizu to mimic an action that can't be animated inside it (picking up a phone, handing over a sheet of paper or something and even then most people are busy blinking so they miss it hehe). I also find tga good if your doing *cough* discontinuous editing or jump cuts to mimic passage of time (I have yet to put that in muvizu not seen much use for it... yet) but otherwise uncompressed is good enough for me. If I wanted to do ultra hd maybe I would consider switching, but at the moment for muvizu anyhow I see little advantage to it unless its for some specific editing magic because youtube is gonna butcher the video no matter what and encode it really badly. Big Grin
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22/04/2013 05:49:44

ukBertyMuvizu mogulExperimental user
ukBerty
Posts: 975 		Thanks for all your answers. I think I'll do what UrbanLamb does, continue to use uncompressed until I want to do some specific editing and then use TGA.

I will also continue to use a swat for those damn flies.
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22/04/2013 06:55:50

ukBertyMuvizu mogulExperimental user
ukBerty
Posts: 975 		Dave - you mention that the anti-alias/ready break glow issue with the unreal engine could be solved with using a special switch to force software anti-aliasing on.

Could you confirm whether this is in Muvizu-Play and what the switch is please.
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23/04/2013 10:07:07

CrazyDaveMuvizu staff
CrazyDave
Posts: 118 		ukBerty wrote:
Could you confirm whether this is in Muvizu-Play and what the switch is please.


It is indeed. Launch the app with "Muvizu.exe -forceSWAA".

D
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23/04/2013 13:22:30

ukBertyMuvizu mogulExperimental user
ukBerty
Posts: 975 		CrazyDave wrote:
Launch the app with "Muvizu.exe -forceSWAA".


I have tested this and can confirm that it all seems to work just fine, the ready break glow has gone - I didn't notice it taking any longer to render so that's made my day.

The thing that I did notice though is that the lighting is not really compatible between 23b and Play. The distance and shadow settings seem to look different. Is it just a case of adjusting each set as I convert over, or can something be done ?
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23/04/2013 13:26:46

CrazyDaveMuvizu staff
CrazyDave
Posts: 118 		ukBerty wrote:
The distance and shadow settings seem to look different. Is it just a case of adjusting each set as I convert over, or can something be done ?


There have been some minor modifications to the way shadows behave over long distances. It shouldn't affect most sets but if it does you will have to adjust them manually as an automatic conversion process would not have been possible to create, sorry.

Let me know if there's any problems associated with this as any changes should have been improvements rather than hindrances.
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23/04/2013 15:08:52

ukBertyMuvizu mogulExperimental user
ukBerty
Posts: 975 		CrazyDave wrote:
Let me know if there's any problems associated with this as any changes should have been improvements rather than hindrances.

OK, I understand. It's just time moving forward really. You don't want to know how many sets I have that will need work.
I'll do a few shots with Play tonight and see how I get on.
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26/04/2013 07:58:35

ukBertyMuvizu mogulExperimental user
ukBerty
Posts: 975 		I have now started to use Play in anger now the teething problems seem to be behind us. I started looking at it again with some trepidation as others are having such problems, but I have to say I’m doing just fine (apologies to those that aren’t).

The camera focus is better
Speed of load and operation is not noticeably different – set loading may even be quicker.
Have had no crashes.

There are some new small issues……

Scale – you can click the up arrow and the object will increase in size, but the scale still reads 1.0. This makes rescaling a bit hit and miss. You seem to get two clicks per granulation.

Process still does not close on exit – I have to kill it off each time or my PC fills up with Muvizus. I seem to be the only one getting this though.

Now, this “Object is too small to be imported” false error. Please, please get rid of this. It is now much worse than it was as the focus switches to this error each time it pops up. I used to be able to start loading a set and then go and do something else – write an email, interact with the forum, work on a 3d model and 3 minus later the set would be loaded (my sets are big, I’m not complaining about the time). But now every time that pesky box pops up focus gets diverted from my current app back to Muvizu which is telling me something that is not true anyway - Ahhhh

A couple of comments…..

Timeline is busy, but we’ll have to get used to it. Could the current object be highlighted as it would make it easier to find. I now have to put the timeline on my second screen which is how it should be, but it means I can no longer watch iPlayer which animating !

If your characters have been moving around then when the set loads the characters seem to be at the position they start at rather than where they were when the set was saved. You have to go to the timeline and they all jump to where they should be. It’s just a bit unnerving.

Personally I would like to see separate start and stop buttons back. When you have a big complicated set there is a slight lag when pressing stop (again, no moans about this). Or when previewing a section it will automatically stop at the end marker. In both these cases it’s very easy to press stop and in fact be pressing start. Going back to two buttons would get round this again.

And an old classic…… moving into the professional arena this one’s time has come to be fixed I think :-

We still have the issue of the sound sync. If you have a section of the timeline selected as your shot and you play from the start of section marker then the sound is in sync - i.e. how it will be when you render. If you play from the middle of the section then it will be out by some distance. This slows production down as for each pass (dialog/head/action/eyes) you need to start recording from the beginning to make sure what you are hearing is in the same place as it will be when you render. This is also true when you are just playing the section to adjust things. Over time this means many hours are wasted.

So, in conclusion I have made the leap to Play and I think I’m sticking with it.

Berty
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26/04/2013 10:55:26

NeilExperimental userMuvizu staff
Neil
Posts: 396 		Hi Berty,

Thanks for the (mostly) positive review.

We've changed the way loading small objects works based on your feedback. We've reduced the minimum allowed size of models that can be safely imported and the cigarette packet model you sent me earlier now loads without any error messages at all. The compromise to that (as insisted upon by our engine developer) is that *really* small models will fail to load and generate an error message. I'll let you know once that feature is released and I'd appreciate it if you could give us some feedback on it as it may require a little tweaking. Thanks.

I'll pass on the bugs that you describe to the appropriate developers (scale, process not closing, sound sync and character start position). Hopefully we can get them all sorted for the next major release.

As for the timeline, we're talking about several changes we can do to make it easier. We've already agreed on a new feature for selecting objects from the timeline and highlighting objects within the timeline that you click on in the scene, much like you're asking for. We're also looking into the layout to make it less busy and generally make it easier to control.

Again, thanks for the feedback, please keep it coming.
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26/04/2013 13:18:51

ukBertyMuvizu mogulExperimental user
ukBerty
Posts: 975 		Neil wrote:
The compromise to that (as insisted upon by our engine developer) is that *really* small models will fail to load and generate an error message.

Neil - that's fine - as long as when it says they don't load then they don't load. The problem at the moment is that although it says they don't load, they do. Then they whinge each time you load the set.

Sounds like you're on top of it though.
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26/04/2013 21:52:42

urbanlamb
urbanlamb
(Account inactive)
Posts: 1786 		Neil wrote:
Hi Berty,


As for the timeline, we're talking about several changes we can do to make it easier. We've already agreed on a new feature for selecting objects from the timeline and highlighting objects within the timeline that you click on in the scene, much like you're asking for. We're also looking into the layout to make it less busy and generally make it easier to control.



I was seriously starting to get worried but your comments make me feel like possibly this will go in the right direction in the end. I sent another email about the timeline detailing more what was wrong, but it seems all so elementary to me to have to say these in such detail. Anyhow I will be waiting and watching and hoping. A second monitor should not be required for a timeline.

I wish I could give more feedback unfortunately its a bit hard when you cant actually work with the product. I am excited with the direction muvizu is taking in most things its the approach that makes me nervous because I want to see your great product succeed and turn lots of heads Big Grin
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29/04/2013 12:29:00

ukBertyMuvizu mogulExperimental user
ukBerty
Posts: 975 		Neil - Just a couple more little things I noticed over the weekend....

Two little bugs....

If you abort rendering a video you have to resize the "make video" window to get the close button to be active. Doesn't always happen - around 50% of the time. Actually just noticed it sometimes does this when you don't abort as well.


Like characters, objects that have their movement animated do not appear in the correct position on loading the set. Unlike characters simply going into the timeline will not move them to the correct position, you have to actually press pay and they jump to where they should be.


And a request...


I want to keep cameras window open once I've opened it. I always want this open - all the time. I have tried to “pin” it, but it still closes.


And a last comment.....


I must admit that I'm finding getting the lighting right is now more difficult - maybe I just need to get used to it.


Berty
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29/04/2013 15:14:34

WozToonsExperimental user
WozToons
Posts: 494 		ukBerty wrote:
If you abort rendering a video you have to resize the "make video" window to get the close button to be active. Doesn't always happen - around 50% of the time. Actually just noticed it sometimes does this when you don't abort as well.

Like characters, objects that have their movement animated do not appear in the correct position on loading the set. Unlike characters simply going into the timeline will not move them to the correct position, you have to actually press pay and they jump to where they should be.


Could these be related to the focus problem I keep banging on about? It seems to me that this version has developed a serious case of short term memory loss. as it doesn't seem to know where it is or what it's done sometimes. The scene window memory use indicator is not working properly.

Loaded textures don't show up, to set a texture to NONE you first have to select a new texture and then select NONE instead of just selecting NONE. The same with IN USE. The mouse wheel on some menus zooms the view as well. The colour/texture box is taking longer to show and is laggy for me now. Yes they work, but they don't work as expected and they cause a interruption in workflow.

Like ukBerty I am finding the lighting quite different but will need more time to decide whether it's positive or negative. It seems to require more computing power and warms my laptop more.

I have used both 32 and 64bit PLAYS and they have the same problems.

For balance, I think the timeline is pretty well sorted now although I haven't messed around with audio in it much.

I'd be grateful if you could let us know where you are with these problems, sorry to moan.
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29/04/2013 16:18:18

NeilExperimental userMuvizu staff
Neil
Posts: 396 		ukBerty wrote:
If you abort rendering a video you have to resize the "make video" window to get the close button to be active. Doesn't always happen - around 50% of the time. Actually just noticed it sometimes does this when you don't abort as well.

I haven't seen this one before, and it seems to be working okay for me. I'll look into it, though.

ukBerty wrote:
Like characters, objects that have their movement animated do not appear in the correct position on loading the set. Unlike characters simply going into the timeline will not move them to the correct position, you have to actually press pay and they jump to where they should be.

It'll likely be the same root cause as the characters. Dave's not in today so I can't check with him, but I'm fairly sure he's looking into it.

ukBerty wrote:
I want to keep cameras window open once I've opened it. I always want this open - all the time. I have tried to “pin” it, but it still closes.

The "pin" option simply keeps the window locked to the main Muvizu window when you drag it around. When is it closing? Do you mean you want it to remember that it was open when you closed Muvizu and have it reappear the next time it starts?
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29/04/2013 16:59:23

NeilExperimental userMuvizu staff
Neil
Posts: 396 		WozToons wrote:
Could these be related to the focus problem I keep banging on about? It seems to me that this version has developed a serious case of short term memory loss. as it doesn't seem to know where it is or what it's done sometimes. The scene window memory use indicator is not working properly.

Just to make sure we're on the same page here, what focus problems are we talking about here? I've read your post about using the mouse wheel in the create / edit menus and I'm not sure I fully understand the issue.

The mouse wheel generally works on whatever is directly under the mouse at the time. So if you have an edit window open with a slider on it, the mouse wheel will control the slider whenever the mouse is directly over it. Otherwise, it should move you backwards and forwards in the scene. Similarly, the create window has a big scrollable list of characters, objects, etc. When the mouse is directly over this list, it should scroll the list. Is this not what you're seeing?


WozToons wrote:
Loaded textures don't show up, to set a texture to NONE you first have to select a new texture and then select NONE instead of just selecting NONE. The same with IN USE. The mouse wheel on some menus zooms the view as well. The colour/texture box is taking longer to show and is laggy for me now. Yes they work, but they don't work as expected and they cause a interruption in workflow.

There's a problem with the "in use" texture category, and although I've had a quick look at it, I'm afraid I haven't had a chance to tackle solving it just yet, sorry. It's definitely on my list though, and I'll get it sorted either in a patch or for the next major release. I'll let you know once I have a better idea. I'll also look at the laggy colour / texture picker for you.

WozToons wrote:
Like ukBerty I am finding the lighting quite different but will need more time to decide whether it's positive or negative. It seems to require more computing power and warms my laptop more.

I think Dave's already spoken about this and frankly, it's beyond my understanding.

WozToons wrote:
For balance, I think the timeline is pretty well sorted now although I haven't messed around with audio in it much.

I'm very happy to hear it. Thanks.
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29/04/2013 22:29:32

WozToonsExperimental user
WozToons
Posts: 494 		Neil wrote:

Just to make sure we're on the same page here, what focus problems are we talking about here? I've read your post about using the mouse wheel in the create / edit menus and I'm not sure I fully understand the issue.

The mouse wheel generally works on whatever is directly under the mouse at the time. So if you have an edit window open with a slider on it, the mouse wheel will control the slider whenever the mouse is directly over it. Otherwise, it should move you backwards and forwards in the scene. Similarly, the create window has a big scrollable list of characters, objects, etc. When the mouse is directly over this list, it should scroll the list. Is this not what you're seeing?



Thanks for responding so quickly Neil, I appreciate you're busy fixing all this stuff.

Please see video below regarding zoom as this makes it clear.....



Hope this helps
edited by WozToons on 29/04/2013
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29/04/2013 23:22:54

NeilExperimental userMuvizu staff
Neil
Posts: 396 		WozToons wrote:
Please see video below regarding zoom as this makes it clear.....

Hmmmm... Yeah, it's definitely not supposed to do that. I'll have a look at that in the morning.

WozToons wrote:
Thanks for responding so quickly Neil, I appreciate you're busy fixing all this stuff.

So, so busy. puppy dog eyes
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